How to Get Into Tech? | Cloud, Cybersecurity, IT support, Networking

[00:00:00] Hello, welcome to the channel and today we're going to be talking about how to get into tech. This is slightly different from what we usually do on the Tech Certified Podcast but in this episode I'm going to be compiling some of the great advice that's been shared on recent episodes of the Tech Certified Podcast. In this episode you will hear from tech professionals and tech creators. Some of these professionals have up to 20 years working in tech, others have 3 years, others have 4 years, others 10 years.

[00:00:29] And you will hear from each of these professionals on how exactly you can get into the tech industry. And the specific roles vary from cybersecurity to cloud to IT support roles and a lot of this advice applies generally to the tech industry as a whole. By the end of this video you will have an understanding of how to actually break into this industry, the best tips and the ways that you can make this work. You will understand the sort of help you need and how exactly you can get started on your journey.

[00:00:59] into the tech industry. Before we begin, I must ask one thing. If you watch the Tech Certified Podcast, please subscribe to this channel. I recently noticed that the vast majority of people who watch this podcast or any videos on this channel were not subscribed and it helps us so much if you just hit that subscribe button. That's enough talk, let's get right into the episode.

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[00:03:27] the trap of staying in that entry level land for example like the google cyber security cert and

[00:03:32] security plus those are entry level let's say i've got a course called grc mastery again it will

[00:03:37] introduce you to the world of grc it will give you the skills that we need for grc jobs so now you've

[00:03:43] got like more of a broad range of skills i think the next step should be to pick something that's

[00:03:49] intermediate level that's hands-on but also a little bit challenging so pick a platform doesn't

[00:03:55] matter which one let's say you pick try hack me or hack the box or whichever pick something and in my

[00:04:00] view focus on the blue team side of things defensive skills skills that will get you in a security

[00:04:06] operation center like even something like let's defend this fantastic or cyber defenders all of

[00:04:11] these platforms are great because they give you hands-on practical skills yeah having these skills

[00:04:16] let's say you have a stock analyst skills you have grc skills and you have broad knowledge in my opinion

[00:04:22] this will give you an excellent leg up into landing your first cyber security job i think the common

[00:04:28] mistakes that happen is people and i see cvs and emails and comments almost every day is they'll be

[00:04:35] like it's really hard to land a cyber security job i'm like what have you done it's like i've done

[00:04:39] come to your a plus network plus security was like well fantastic so you haven't done anything you're

[00:04:43] just really just stopping or they'll be like i've done google cyber analyst and microsoft analyst and

[00:04:48] then security plus i'm like okay so you've done step number one but what's stopping you is like it's

[00:04:53] hard i'm like so what is hard like what have you done you've just studied something and you haven't

[00:04:57] even applied to a single job so in my opinion just don't stay too long in that beginner land like

[00:05:04] do something challenging do more than one challenging course and i think the second

[00:05:07] thing and the second sinister thing is sometimes people are so afraid of rejection is

[00:05:12] they apply to one or two jobs they get rejected or something maybe the company didn't reply to them

[00:05:19] but unfortunately they tag like they start to make conclusions from that rejection they start to

[00:05:26] conclude okay i got rejected therefore the market is really bad or oh my god one company rejected me

[00:05:32] then cyber security is not entry level then they go to reddit and they read garbage post about how

[00:05:38] you know the field is doomed and gloomed and you know there is no hope so i think we no one likes

[00:05:43] to get rejected i hate being rejected but it's just you know you gotta play the numbers game we all get

[00:05:49] rejected so again the second mistake i see is they only apply to one or two jobs and then they give up

[00:05:54] in fact if it was me i would apply to jobs every single day and just get used to being rejected

[00:06:00] and i'd like to give this example compared to candidates one has applied to three jobs whilst the other

[00:06:07] person have applied to 300 jobs which one has a higher likelihood of landing an interview and

[00:06:12] landing a job i think like the answer is really obvious in that one so i think yeah this is a rough

[00:06:18] plan and like you said i've got it to some like i've got this same plan in so much detail in my videos

[00:06:24] so i think that that's what i would personally do and this has been proven time and time again i do

[00:06:30] get you know um comments on my youtube videos i get messages on discord of individuals from all over

[00:06:37] the world who have followed these plans and has successfully landed their first cyber security jobs

[00:06:43] which is an ultimate proof to anyone who says you know it's impossible to land the job absolutely wrong

[00:06:49] it's definitely possible it happens every single day amazing and that's an incredible path that you've

[00:06:55] laid out for anyone trying to get their first role one of the things i really like that you said is

[00:07:04] comparing the difference between the two people one of them with with three jobs one of them

[00:07:09] who has applied to over 300 i think a lot of the times people searching for roles are not searching

[00:07:17] with the same hunger as some people do people talk about there's one thing that i can't remember

[00:07:25] who told me this but someone said that if you're looking for a nine-to-five and you don't have a

[00:07:31] nine-to-five your nine-to-five should be looking for a nine-to-five and so the time you're not working

[00:07:39] and looking for that role your job your one job should be applying to roles every day tailoring your cv to

[00:07:47] numerous roles and really just grinding and going for that and of course this is when you're at the point

[00:07:53] where you know you've got the skills ready for the roles that you're applying for and if you aren't

[00:08:01] applying with that same hunger as others are your chances are so much lower than than than uh than

[00:08:09] they should be so um that that's that's a great uh analogy yeah 100 for those aspiring engineers in

[00:08:17] cyber security what is your advice on getting into cyber security that's a great question

[00:08:24] man and this is also one that if you had asked me like three four five years ago my answer would

[00:08:31] different but now where i'm at like i'm seeing things differently right um quite honestly and also

[00:08:37] like with like mentoring people on like cyborgs academy and also like just seeing the journeys of

[00:08:42] people i think i i i think of it differently these days right with regards to my advice my advice is

[00:08:49] honestly pick something and get good at it right this goes back into the domain specific thing i see

[00:08:57] so many people that are like just all over the place right you're not going to get good at anything

[00:09:03] if you don't get good at something at the very least right like don't just jump around like go from

[00:09:11] like learning offensive to like like yes knowing multiple things in cyber security makes you better

[00:09:17] and well-rounded but if you're not good at something like one thing one good enough thing nobody's really

[00:09:25] wanting to hire you because how do they justify you being on their team like how like yes you might be

[00:09:31] good at all these things but how do you fit in to their company or their organization right think about

[00:09:38] let's not even let's just think about it from a hiring manager's perspective when they're hiring

[00:09:42] somebody for a role they need somebody to fulfill a certain requirement a certain job requirement right

[00:09:47] so how do you become that person that fulfills that job requirement right think of it as okay i want to be

[00:09:53] a suck analyst okay what does a suck analyst need to know i need to know how to use sims edrs

[00:10:00] analyze logs know how like uh uh uh windows systems work how linux system works how active directory

[00:10:07] works maybe some cloud right i need to understand how attackers compromise these systems but more

[00:10:12] importantly how to detect that how to analyze that right i need to understand like how to look at logs

[00:10:16] how to look at processes i look at uh memory right you know system memory like windows memory like look at

[00:10:22] linux memory i need to do not uh uh how to analyze malware right understand like what hashes are like

[00:10:28] think of it as as a perspective of a hiring manager hiring you for a job what are they looking for

[00:10:34] right and build those skills now when you get into the industry you can do whatever you want you could

[00:10:39] continue to dig deeper into like defensive security if you're a suck analyst like myself i did the same

[00:10:45] thing i dug deeper and deeper into like getting better at being a detection engineer or a suck

[00:10:51] analyst or a threat hunter or you know cloud threat detection or like now where i do security response

[00:10:56] engineering like i've been digging deeper into this domain but what's to say like you know a few

[00:11:02] years down the line i can't maybe transition is like offensive security or maybe like some

[00:11:06] devs at cops or something else i can i can do that if i want to because i have a solid foundation

[00:11:11] is something else that picking up the skills for this other thing it's not going to be so much

[00:11:16] harder for me because i already know how to get good at something it's like i know i can i can use

[00:11:20] that experience i i got from getting good at defensive security to transition into another field

[00:11:26] right so get good at something i love the advice from the book so good they can't ignore you by

[00:11:33] cal newport it's like so maybe you want to pursue their passion that's fine and great and all but you

[00:11:41] also have to factor in like you're living in in in this world where you get paid for the value you

[00:11:47] provide to an organization right your passion might be in like knowing how to do everything in offensive

[00:11:53] security and defensive security that's great and all but you need to get good at something so good

[00:11:59] they can't ignore you like your skills are so good that it can't ignore you they can't but hire you for

[00:12:05] this role right and that also applies into like even though you're an entry-level candidate i know

[00:12:10] there's the sentiment out there where like entry-level roles should be for people without experience i'd

[00:12:14] agree with that but you have to set yourself apart from other people right it's it's a job market i get

[00:12:22] that but it's also a competition because it's like they're going to choose the best candidates so how do

[00:12:27] you stand out how do you become the best candidate right how do you keep building your skills to get

[00:12:31] better at what you do how do you build your communication skills or your interviewing skills

[00:12:35] to get better at talking to people and sharing your skills sharing your experiences how do you build

[00:12:39] all of these things that help you be a better candidate right ultimately you want to be so good

[00:12:44] they can't ignore you that's how you get the job that's how you get into the industry and how you

[00:12:48] transition you know get other get other jobs transition into different roles all that stuff so

[00:12:53] i think you know first if you can like read that book so good they can't ignore you it's very practical

[00:12:58] but also like get really good at something right and while you're applying for jobs don't give up like

[00:13:04] just keep getting better at what you do keep building your skills keep doing those ctfs keeps keep doing

[00:13:09] those home labs keep like connecting with people like just keep building and building and building

[00:13:14] eventually you get to a point where like you're you're really good at this one thing and you can use that

[00:13:18] to get your foot in the door and then from there you can just like do whatever you want you can build

[00:13:23] more skills maybe in cloud in like devs like cops in devops in um application security

[00:13:29] offensive security whatever the case is so that's my advice wow no that's incredible bro and

[00:13:33] i feel like that advice really covers off what someone needs to know is to look at something

[00:13:41] look at a specific role and go after the specific skills yeah for that role and really learn it through

[00:13:49] and through and it's similar to a conversation i was having with another guest of you know people

[00:13:54] loving to jump around or move into different roles but learning the skills of that one role

[00:14:01] yeah and becoming really good at it to the point where you're the go-to yes of this specific thing

[00:14:08] yeah is super important for your career yeah um which is some incredible advice and definitely some

[00:14:15] advice that will be super helpful for all those trying to get into the industry those aspiring yeah

[00:14:21] cyber security professionals so thanks so much for that bro most definitely this is this is um this has

[00:14:27] been such a great podcast already man and um i have a few more questions but i really just wanted to say

[00:14:33] it's been incredible having you on here and like it just reminded me of like the podcast that we've had

[00:14:40] previously bro when i said we called you out like three times i wasn't joking like we had a couple of

[00:14:46] episodes where we were like they he's gonna he's gonna come on i remember i was talking to a sheesh i think

[00:14:51] that was episode four was it or five and we were like yeah yeah day's gonna come on and then a recent

[00:14:57] episode where i was talking to denzel we were like day's gonna come on to the podcast eventually we just

[00:15:03] keep calling his name in the episode but he'll get he'll get here eventually bro so just wanted to say

[00:15:08] now so so great to finally have you on bro yeah man most definitely thank you so much for having me man

[00:15:13] it's been this has been a great conversation um and i'm looking forward to like you know this

[00:15:18] conversation helping people out there you know with the cyber security careers and i wanted to get

[00:15:23] into this question about your advice on getting into the industry on getting into networking or or tech in

[00:15:34] general but for those aspiring people who are trying to get into this area and get their first roles in

[00:15:41] this area what would you say is your best advice to those people what were their steps to to getting

[00:15:49] in be or generally what is your best advice for them yeah yeah so whenever you want to get into networking

[00:15:55] i would say the main thing you need is experience and then people are going to say how do i get

[00:15:59] experience because most jobs want experience right so what i would say is first of all get the

[00:16:04] knowledge you're going to need the knowledge either way because nowadays companies like they don't want to

[00:16:09] take the time to train you some companies so what you want to do is you want to get the knowledge and

[00:16:14] there's tons of knowledge in the internet like you can you can get it for free from youtube you can get

[00:16:18] a paid course for dirt cheap on udemy for like 10 15 bucks which is what i did when i first got started

[00:16:23] i took udemy course for 15 dollars uh by neil anderson um fantastic course like a 40 hour course

[00:16:30] and i went through that thing like five times literally five times because when i first got started

[00:16:35] networking i was like you know everything was like new to me so i didn't know how to like study how

[00:16:40] to like get started um so i went through that course so many times i would like watch it like like as i'm

[00:16:45] working out as i'm going to the gym just to what what i like to do is i want to like brain

[00:16:49] brainwash myself into understanding networking technology right um because i heard someone say

[00:16:54] like if you if you hang around hang around with network engineers and hang around when it's with

[00:16:58] people that are in a particular industry for a while you end up gonna know things like without even

[00:17:03] like you'll be unintentionally learning so i wanted to get to the period of unintentionally

[00:17:07] learning networking so that's either hanging out with my uncle uh or like watching videos or just

[00:17:13] like you know just like do it as entertainment time right like try to like listen to a podcast

[00:17:18] or anything like that like that's i try to get to that like mojo of like and just learn learn learn

[00:17:23] learn learn so i spent quite a bit of time learning um and like i said to get started i would say get the

[00:17:29] knowledge that's the first possible thing the first thing you need to do is get the knowledge

[00:17:33] because without the knowledge it's going to be hard and even when you get started it's going to

[00:17:37] be even harder too so you might as well learn now um just to understand just the basics first

[00:17:42] so once you've learned the knowledge i would say get a certification and to get a certification i would

[00:17:48] say go for the ccna and like i said certifications are good but the issue with certifications is that

[00:17:54] they're the way the way they work is they're just multiple choice questions right and with these

[00:17:59] multiple choice questions like you know you can you can know the knowledge but still do bad on the exam

[00:18:04] right because it's uh you got to be good at test taking so you also want to learn the skill of test

[00:18:09] taking as well because that's just the nature of certifications and how they test you um but i would say

[00:18:14] get better at test taking but at the same time get the real world world experience so if you possibly

[00:18:20] can try to get any job in tech anywhere whether it's help desk whether it's a knock roll it really depends

[00:18:28] on your experience level uh but try to get any sort of experience that you possibly can doesn't

[00:18:33] matter where because people say where do i go anywhere having even a little bit of like unrelated

[00:18:37] experience in tech is going to help you no matter what right and and who knows maybe there's network

[00:18:42] engineers at that company that you can network network with right so there's a lot of potential um as

[00:18:48] soon as you get your first uh level experience right so i would say get the experience um learn the

[00:18:54] knowledge and get the and get his and get a um certification like a ccna um but but like i said

[00:19:01] i would say start off to if you want to the big thing i want you guys to know is pick one field

[00:19:08] right like if you want to do networking stick to that as long as you possibly can right because that way

[00:19:15] your your your knowledge networking is going to go up up up up up up right that way you can your

[00:19:20] knowledge base is going to get increased but if you go into networking and go to cyber security and

[00:19:24] go into cloud all within a year you're going to have like a base level of knowledge of all of them

[00:19:29] and then you know that's not going to really help you in your career so i would say just pick one thing

[00:19:34] tunnel vision if you are going to networking the roadmap that i would say is learn the knowledge

[00:19:39] first from like a court video course um and then with that video course get get a certification during

[00:19:44] that time try to land a role as a basic level you know it job tech job um doesn't really matter um

[00:19:51] sometimes you can get lucky and get a position that's like closer to networking but if not you

[00:19:56] know it's okay um work within that position try to network with people who are in networking roles

[00:20:02] whether it's people that work at knock people who work in troubleshooting um also like go into

[00:20:07] linkedin and network with people try to find someone like in your town in your city who is a networking

[00:20:13] engineer who you can literally talk to who you can ask advice from because having that person is

[00:20:18] going to be very important because they're going to give you like the the real-time advice because

[00:20:22] obviously things change right the industry changes quick so you want to have someone who can give you

[00:20:27] that real-time advice because if you're watching a video from youtube from like five years ago telling

[00:20:31] you advice it may not be relevant now they may not be relevant tech is always changing tech moves

[00:20:36] fast like there's ai now like you want the real-time advice and you want the real advice you

[00:20:40] know like find someone who's going to be like brutally honest and real with you and tell you

[00:20:44] like where to go because most people will just tell you get this get that but everyone's different you

[00:20:49] know where your starting point is different for everybody so having someone who can literally sort

[00:20:53] of be a mentor um it's going to be very important to try to find that person uh particularly like a

[00:20:59] real like in real time so like someone like in real life that you that you can meet and talk to

[00:21:03] and then like ask questions like help on a call whenever so find that little person that can help you

[00:21:09] um so now you have your um you know your certification you have your experience you have someone who's

[00:21:14] mentoring you you have a little bit of experience like you should have enough knowledge to to get

[00:21:19] started in this career um but in my case obviously i went to the degree route you can also if you do

[00:21:23] have a degree you can leverage that as well but i've seen people without degrees with this or with just

[00:21:28] basic level associates degrees that are able to land jobs and networking because like i said if you

[00:21:32] have the knowledge they'll hire you like you don't need a degree um a lot of people say you need a

[00:21:37] degree um maybe 20 30 years ago nowadays it's it's different i would say like if you have the knowledge

[00:21:44] you have the skills and you can interview well like you're gonna be fine you're gonna be fine

[00:21:50] and you just gotta find that company that's willing to take a chance on you see that you're willing to

[00:21:53] learn um and it's just it's gonna be a grind it's literally gonna be a grind no matter where you start

[00:21:59] whenever you're new to things it's gonna be harder uh when i first got started it was a bit difficult

[00:22:03] because like like i said it i like i when i first got started i was new to it you're gonna go through

[00:22:11] periods of pain of struggle you're gonna feel like is this even worth it should i even like is this path

[00:22:16] even worth it for me but you those are moments and times where you have to stick to it you have to

[00:22:22] stick to it you have to take your time and effort um and just know that with time and effort and and

[00:22:27] goodwill eventually you'll you'll uh you'll land that role so like i said it's getting the knowledge

[00:22:32] getting the experience getting certifications and finding a mentor those are the main four i would

[00:22:35] say if you can get that main four locked in and sticking to that one path you're golden amazing

[00:22:40] that's that's some great advice and i and i like the structure of it you know those are the four steps

[00:22:45] guys if you're going on this path wally has given you some some great steps to follow as a road map to

[00:22:52] that they're getting into this field and if you follow that your your chances will be way higher

[00:22:57] no way there is just no way some of you guys have been watching this far and have not subscribed to

[00:23:05] the channel others have yet to even like the video and for the people watching on spotify and apple podcast

[00:23:11] some of you have not even rated the podcast thanks so much for watching guys if you got any value

[00:23:17] like subscribe and rate the podcast on whatever streaming platform all right let's get right back to the video

[00:23:22] one thing i wanted to ask you just based on your advice is where do you see yourself in the next

[00:23:31] few years is this networking area somewhere that you see yourself working in over a long period of time

[00:23:38] as you said like if you stay in an area and build up your skills in that one area you just keep going

[00:23:43] up and up and up but but but also i know for a lot of people moving around as well is something they

[00:23:50] say you know yeah you can learn a bit of this learn a bit of this and then you'll be more well-rounded

[00:23:54] or things like that so so what's your thoughts on that and for you where do you see yourself uh do you

[00:24:02] see yourself in this networking industry long term or do you see yourself moving into other areas of

[00:24:08] tech that are related as well what's your thoughts on that yeah yeah so obviously with tech it's very

[00:24:14] exciting there's so many different issues you can get into um and there's like two schools of thoughts

[00:24:19] right you can either you know learn one skill master that skill get better and better and better become

[00:24:25] more marketable because you're the best in the world at skill or you could be the person that you know

[00:24:30] learns a skill and sees okay i can use my networking to get the cloud and then gets into cloud because like

[00:24:35] obviously like maybe you can get bored after a certain period of time i know people who

[00:24:39] you know they get into networking after like maybe four or five years they're like okay i want to jump into

[00:24:43] something new like i've been doing this for a while i want to start something fresh so they'll get into

[00:24:46] cloud they'll get into like network automation and one of the cool things about networking is

[00:24:51] like you can get into cyber security you can get into cloud you can get into like automation there's

[00:24:56] the like like just because you're in networking doesn't mean you can get you can get stuck there

[00:25:00] like there's so many sub niches that value the skill of networking so it's gonna it's gonna

[00:25:06] literally help you like crazy so i would say like even in my case i'm i've like at the point where

[00:25:12] like should i should i like master networking keep keep going keep grinding or should i kind

[00:25:17] of jump around so i'm i'm in that phase where i'm like even i'm a little bit confused because it's

[00:25:21] like a it's a it's a difficult path like i'm not 100 sure but one of the fields that really have been

[00:25:25] exciting me is security um and particularly like network security because obviously we're networking

[00:25:30] there's you know there's a subset of networking that's network security um and that niche is like very

[00:25:36] interesting in my opinion because i like the idea of like stopping stopping bad actors and like trying to

[00:25:41] protect the network from like because obviously like you you want to keep things secure so there's

[00:25:45] a different um sub niches within tech um and like i said uh in my case i i really can't answer that

[00:25:52] question because i honestly don't know where i'll go um yeah like in the next four years but if i do if

[00:25:58] i did have an idea i definitely want to be in security probably network security um and like i said

[00:26:03] like having that networking knowledge is going to help so even if you get into networking you end up like hey

[00:26:08] i don't really like this like it doesn't really matter because you can still go into another niche

[00:26:12] within tech because most companies that i've seen they all value networking because most people that

[00:26:18] are not in networking end up not even learning it because they're like oh it's you know why do i need

[00:26:22] to learn this right because it's like you know sometimes like i'm like in your case do you really

[00:26:27] learn networking as a cloud engineer yeah you do um you have to understand it to a certain level

[00:26:34] depending on which area you're learning and for me working in cloud infrastructure you need to have

[00:26:42] a good foundational understanding of networking within the cloud within configuring is you're

[00:26:47] using ip addresses you're working with subnets you're configuring virtual networks um you do have

[00:26:53] to have an understanding of networking it might be more specific to microsoft and networking within the

[00:27:01] cloud but yeah you you need a good understanding of networking and i feel like most roles as you said

[00:27:09] cyber security very much so cloud very much so yeah most areas you will have need to have an

[00:27:17] understanding and it's funny um because as you explain i was just thinking of you know i how you

[00:27:24] you spoke about wanting to move into cyber and if you did it would be network security and similarly with

[00:27:32] me you know i started in a cloud infrastructure role as a as a cloud administrator as your administrator

[00:27:38] then i moved into cloud security so it's like security is so interesting because everything has to be

[00:27:46] secured each area has to be looked after and so there's network security it is cloud security it is

[00:27:53] different parts of security and whichever area you start with you're able to leverage those skills to

[00:27:59] move into the next area and i also had a friend who was working in desktop support like he's a desktop

[00:28:06] engineer and he was asking me like you know i want to move into cyber security but and i've been working

[00:28:14] in this as a desktop engineer for like like over a year but like how do i get experience in cyber security

[00:28:20] but i was like bro you're working as a desktop engineer you work with firewalls you work with

[00:28:27] ips you work with all this stuff you already have experience in cyber security you just need to leverage that

[00:28:34] and communicate that to where you want to go next that yeah you've been working somewhat in cyber security

[00:28:40] so so it's really interesting you say that and and yeah of course in cloud especially in my part of cloud and cloud security

[00:28:47] and understanding of networking is is almost is required so so yeah it's super interesting

[00:28:53] yeah it's crazy because like most people don't even understand like the skills they're learning like

[00:28:58] if you have like like i brought up with the experience thing like your friend like people don't understand

[00:29:02] like the experience you're getting you can leverage it like you don't like most people don't understand

[00:29:07] that but like what you do on day-to-day basis even if it's like very minute or very little

[00:29:11] um the fact that you're able to work with the equipment you're gaining experience no matter what

[00:29:15] right like i said sometimes you'll be working on a firewall be like hey bro like just like your friend

[00:29:19] like that's the easy way in because you can always talk about what you do on day-to-day basis

[00:29:24] and and obviously like if you want you can you know you're working with that equipment you can ask you

[00:29:29] know your manager you can ask your if there's other co-workers who can literally just like you know

[00:29:33] you can just like peer mentor and like watch what they do on a day-to-day basis and that's literally

[00:29:37] getting experience you can ask questions right then and there so it's it's crazy the the career

[00:29:42] track you can get into once you have experience and like i said it's you know once you're networking

[00:29:47] or once you're in a certain field you can it's going to open more doors for you and and there

[00:29:51] is one thing that you guys gotta kind of be wary of is something called um shiny object syndrome

[00:29:57] because you can be in a position where you know you you know you want to pick a field or you're you

[00:30:04] you're dead set on a field and you see another person in this field you're like oh should i jump

[00:30:07] into that and you see another person in this field in cloud oh should i get into that and then you see

[00:30:11] another person do automation you see another person my bad you see another person do like a bunch of

[00:30:16] different like things and you're like bro where do i go you know and you end up in this position where you

[00:30:22] you think every other put every other field in tech is better than your field or the field that you're

[00:30:29] getting into and you're in this kind of weird position where you end up stuck between all these

[00:30:34] fields and you don't know where to go so that's like another thing that you got to be wary of is

[00:30:38] just because you see you know someone doing security someone doing data analytics don't jump off your

[00:30:44] wagon stick to what you've been doing um and and try to stick it out for i would say two to three years

[00:30:49] minimum just so you can get that base level experience because as soon as you start jumping around

[00:30:54] you're going to be wasting time you're not really going to be in that level of i would say mid-tier

[00:31:00] without that level of experience because if you're just jumping jumping jumping um it's it's not a good

[00:31:06] idea try to stick to a certain path for a decent amount of time once you've kind of mastered that

[00:31:10] path and you felt like you've learned a lot you gained a tons of experience then it's the time to

[00:31:15] transition right you can get into either like security or cloud so that's what i would say that's some

[00:31:20] that's a really good point like the grass is greener on the other side oh wait cloud they make more money

[00:31:32] or man their stuff looks pretty cool or they get to work remotely i want to do that

[00:31:39] and then you end up like switching and then when you're in cloud you start to look oh cyber security

[00:31:47] oh and then you're like oh software but no that's such a great point on really focusing on one area

[00:31:55] and building up the skills before doing the jumping because loads of people are jumping for a salary hike

[00:32:02] and on a recent podcast someone spoke to me as well about this and he was like yeah you can only job hop to

[00:32:08] a certain point where you're gonna stay mid-level or you're not gonna be you know you're not gonna be

[00:32:15] able to job hop much further and you're not gonna be able to get those salary rises if you are you're

[00:32:22] you're not you haven't stayed in one place and picked up the the learnings and and gain the experience

[00:32:28] to a level that another place would see that okay yeah this person is at this level and we want to bring

[00:32:35] him in at this amount right so so it's it's a really good point that you make on there with that one

[00:32:41] yeah and what analogy i like to say is like think of it like sports imagine if you just picked one sport

[00:32:46] or you or you played seven sports right if you want to make it to the nba you're playing seven sports

[00:32:53] you're probably not going to make to the nba right but if you stick with basketball and only play

[00:32:58] basketball right and then you know you're going to be what they call it like you'll be an expert in

[00:33:02] that field of of hooping right and then you can actually you know demand a higher salary because

[00:33:08] you're one of the best in the world right so if you want to get to that position of expertise like

[00:33:13] you guys are jumping for if you guys are going for salary you're almost better off sticking to one

[00:33:17] field and being the best as you possibly can in that field that's honestly the best way if you just if

[00:33:23] you're going for salary it may take like you may not have those big salary cases in the beginning

[00:33:27] but over a long period of time like maybe 10 years in the like in 10 years you're probably going to be

[00:33:32] making more because you'll be you'll be able to demand a higher salary because your knowledge level

[00:33:37] your experience level in that one particular field is so high that they'll be like yeah we have to you

[00:33:43] know you can demand a higher salary versus jumping around and getting these little boosts but

[00:33:48] you're never actually getting that yeah you're like i said that mid-tier level of experience but

[00:33:52] never getting to that expert level where you get like the the crazy money you know i just wanted to

[00:33:56] ask you while we have you about the most important skills to have in the cloud industry i mean it's

[00:34:03] probably a difficult question because every cloud role is so different and the cloud is so much broader

[00:34:11] than people realize you know people think cloud engineer means one thing means you do one certain thing

[00:34:17] the cloud but there are so many services that you work with and there are so many different roles

[00:34:23] within the cloud but i wanted to know from your perspective toby what you would say are the most

[00:34:31] important skills to have in the cloud industry and those could be soft skills or hard technical skills

[00:34:39] but what would you say to to that question i'd say the number one is terraform um after you've learned

[00:34:45] the cloud provider if you can learn terraform use it effectively it's going to be primarily

[00:34:54] depending on the role a lot of cloud engineers most used tool in my opinion you know no one uses the

[00:35:01] gui no one really does click ops work everything is automated so if you can learn terraform and then

[00:35:07] learn a cicd pipeline tool like azure devops or git lab for example that will really set you up in a

[00:35:15] good stead um i recently done a video on this and kind of said like you don't need to know everything

[00:35:21] to become a junior you need to know fundamentals and the course of work so if you can learn cloud

[00:35:27] learn terraform learn a pipeline tool that's as far really as i think a junior really needs

[00:35:34] um and also preferably you have like an automation tool like bash powershot or python i think that is

[00:35:40] a really core for a junior it's going to set them up nicely those are some great tools and great

[00:35:45] examples of places to you know i think if you have a great understanding and and have done all the

[00:35:53] projects and work with with certain thing when you go into interview or or whatever the case may be

[00:35:57] this is something you can present that yeah i have done this this this with terraform i understand this

[00:36:02] this this you know when you're able to discuss certain tools that you've learned and and worked

[00:36:06] with that is a a big plus for anyone trying to get into the industry um from from uh yeah from from

[00:36:14] zero or from not knowing much or from whatever background you're coming from so that's a great

[00:36:21] point there and and so what about soft skills what would you say are soft skills that are super

[00:36:27] important or soft skills that you've had that have helped you get to the the senior positions you are

[00:36:34] today or have helped you move up and that sort of thing so i actually think empathy is one of the

[00:36:42] most underrated so if you get frustrated a client um whether it's in industry or working in consulting

[00:36:50] being able to actually listen to what they need understand what their requirements are and portray

[00:36:57] it back to them as effectively as you can is probably the most underrated trait since i've been working

[00:37:02] in consulting i feel like my communication skills have just blown up um massively and even from creating

[00:37:09] content actually just talking to a camera can make you actually talk better in person without ever

[00:37:14] realizing it like before i did um content i worked in consulting like i was not as good as a communicator

[00:37:21] as i am now so i actually think communication is probably the most underrated you know i think people

[00:37:26] have this stigma of engineers and people that work in tech is that they're all introverted um that is

[00:37:32] pretty true to a large extent like a lot of engineers are introverted but the key noticeable thing is that

[00:37:38] people that go on to senior positions in management they aren't introverts they're people who have

[00:37:44] learned how to communicate and i said actually said this in my recent video that being an engineer

[00:37:49] isn't just writing code being an engineer is writing code knowing what a product is how to sell a

[00:37:54] product how to communicate a product and all these different things so if you can learn how to

[00:37:59] communicate and understand people's requirements that's probably the best core soft skills it's so true

[00:38:04] and this is something that like i i emphasize quite a bit or have been recently because i feel like

[00:38:11] people don't people underestimate and they're like okay yeah i'm learning the tools and i and i know

[00:38:17] this stuff so well but like even from the point of an interview if you can't communicate it doesn't matter

[00:38:25] it doesn't matter much about what you've done if you can't bring that across to to a hiring manager or

[00:38:31] whoever's interviewing you it's not you're not in the best position to to get that role and someone

[00:38:37] with less technical skills yeah who is able to communicate really well and communicate what they've

[00:38:43] done really well would be ahead of you if you don't if you don't have that or if you haven't worked on that

[00:38:49] area as well as the technical side of things hmm and if if the way to look here is that if you were a hiring manager

[00:38:56] what do you look for who is me i'd want i'd want to hire someone i actually want to work with

[00:39:02] which is really what an interview boils down to and so many interviews don't flow well and that's like

[00:39:09] not something you should be annoyed about if your interview doesn't flow well the interviewer could be

[00:39:13] a bad communicator i've had so many interviews with people who are in like senior or lead positions

[00:39:19] and in my opinion they're terrible at communicating and then the interview flows terribly and sometimes it's

[00:39:25] not just that as well it's your personalities if you're hiring if you're trying to go for a job and

[00:39:30] the hiring manager is a completely different person to you and maybe they don't have the same sort of

[00:39:34] hobbies or anything like that your interview can just be flat from from the get-go usually it's one of

[00:39:38] the first things you discuss like tell us about yourself if they don't really care what you're

[00:39:43] interested in you're not really going to care what they're interested in and the interview just doesn't

[00:39:46] really flow that well i had that recently when i was um doing my last hiring ranks and within the first

[00:39:52] two minutes i knew i wouldn't get the job it was it was that bad it felt like i was interviewing them

[00:40:00] almost because i was trying to get more information out of them for the questions because they were just

[00:40:05] terrible questions that you would never ask anyone wow that's incredible um so so when we talk about

[00:40:11] like soft skills i'm i think back to like how did i develop soft skills or be able to speak and and

[00:40:20] it's it's just you know everyone starts from somewhere and some people start better than

[00:40:24] others right naturally some people are better at talking about stuff than others but there are also

[00:40:31] ways to to practice that i feel like even just if you're not in the industry you know things like

[00:40:36] mock interviews are really helpful but if you are i think you know certain certain pieces of work

[00:40:44] that i've done in the past that have involved speaking to to to a customer or speaking to or

[00:40:52] tech support kind of tasks or or job not that i've worked in tech support but still within my role

[00:40:59] i've had different uh areas where i've had to do some tech support or do some incident response

[00:41:05] and and those have really helped me with with communication because now i have to think about

[00:41:11] how i'm speaking to the person that has this issue oh this is so and so is happening to my computer

[00:41:16] i have to ask them certain questions i have to hear their responses and be like okay yeah this is how we

[00:41:22] go about it if if i still can't figure it out i have to to manage this in a way that i'm speaking to

[00:41:27] them and assuring them and all this stuff and i felt like i was never really taught this but i had to kind

[00:41:35] of figure it out and then after that content like you see the way i'm speaking now and then you look

[00:41:43] at my first video they're like damn there's a massive difference there's a it's black and white and so

[00:41:51] it's all this to say that communication is is something that is developed and grown as well as

[00:41:58] you know some people have it and some people don't even if you don't that is something that you have to

[00:42:03] develop as an engineer especially i think especially for young people as well you know because like

[00:42:08] these have killed communication really like how many times if like someone calls you and you've

[00:42:14] looked at and you're like i won't answer it i'll text them instead in five minutes you know that sort

[00:42:19] of stuff you don't realize how much that sort of stuff portrays into your career a lot of people don't

[00:42:24] you know if someone calls you randomly on teams like people get annoyed like oh god why are they

[00:42:29] calling me and i just send me a message like that sort of stuff is portrayed into working environments

[00:42:35] now people don't really want to get on the phone they don't want to talk they don't want to have

[00:42:38] meetings they just want to type out to each other and i think the young people who are growing up now

[00:42:43] will suffer a lot more from that than like people like us who've already been through it so it's

[00:42:48] definitely something that they should acknowledge um so true talking to people because yeah people

[00:42:54] think in tech you don't talk to anyone but it's a client based industry yeah exactly you have to

[00:43:01] and i mean i i followed you online for a while and i've seen a lot of the content that you put out there

[00:43:06] and you put out a lot about roles that are out there yeah which is really cool and you kind of suggest

[00:43:14] roles that people should sort of get into and i kind of wanted to ask you on that note how do you

[00:43:21] think what do you think is the way to find those suitable roles for you and and for for anyone getting

[00:43:27] into tech how do you find those suitable roles you know where do you start with that um what were your

[00:43:33] thoughts on that question um yeah so that's a really um interesting question um because uh technology is so

[00:43:40] diverse and i think one of the hardest things about breaking into technology is that there's so much

[00:43:45] option and like you kind of go over information overload the practical steps that i would suggest

[00:43:51] for people who want to break into the industry is that i break tech into five disciplines and so those

[00:43:58] five disciplines are clouds data ai cyber security and web development that's where i'd start off as like

[00:44:05] the disciplines within tech i encourage um people to research into those different disciplines and take

[00:44:12] time whilst researching those different disciplines to get a general understanding about the conversation

[00:44:19] within those uh disciplines and also the opportunities and roles within there what i find with a lot of

[00:44:26] people they get confused because they haven't necessarily got a strategy towards their research in

[00:44:32] tech they kind of just go online um look for whatever seems to be high paying what everybody's going for

[00:44:39] but they haven't actually dedicated enough time to do research um within each of those disciplines so

[00:44:46] the five disciplines give yourself time and grace researching into those different disciplines and

[00:44:52] identify like what's the language what's the conversation what's happening in industry and what are the roles

[00:44:58] and so what i like to do as a starter is like lawagan and general assembly have introductory lessons

[00:45:05] across those different disciplines so you could be like i want to know more about the clouds what on earth

[00:45:10] is the cloud go to maybe um a wagon or general assembly do one of their one hour intro sessions

[00:45:17] two hour intro sessions and find out okay is this something that's of interest to me yes it is so

[00:45:24] once you've done that and you've like okay it seems to me that i really like the area of cyber security

[00:45:29] um what i like to do is find out the key roles within that discipline so let's say in cyber security

[00:45:35] you've got instant response you've got um project management business analyst cyber security engineer

[00:45:41] cyber security analyst find out what are the most common jobs in that discipline um because then that

[00:45:47] will tell you like okay these are the common jobs within cyber security and what are the most uh

[00:45:54] in demand skills within that discipline so i think you've got abroad i want to get into tech

[00:45:58] you've identified the discipline and then within that discipline you understand what are the most valuable

[00:46:04] skill sets and what are the most common roles and then you can look for opportunity that aligns with

[00:46:10] you upskilling in that area so that's sort of the starting ground i would say more specifically to

[00:46:17] the content that i share i think it's it's just a gift that i have um working within industry you might

[00:46:23] not necessarily understand how your skill set translates into the industry until you start

[00:46:30] working it's only until i started working now i was like oh my gosh actually being in the industry if we

[00:46:36] had someone who had business acumen they'd be really good at this if we had someone who did that and

[00:46:41] whatever but i think when you're starting out you might not necessarily be able to

[00:46:46] understand what makes the most sense based on your background um but yeah that's what i would say and

[00:46:52] also on the pursuit of wanting a tech career understands that your trajectory might change so

[00:47:00] yeah for me when i was pursuing a career within tech my ambition was to get into cloud at that time i

[00:47:05] knew it was cloud engineering so i just took on uh opportunities that upskilled me in the area of

[00:47:22] um i was able to land an opportunity in cyber security during that journey of wanting to get into tech so

[00:47:28] it's good to have an idea of what you want to do the skills that you develop but be open to changes in

[00:47:34] your career trajectory as and when you develop your skill set amazing amazing those are some really good

[00:47:40] points and for the one that you started with when you you spoke about um the five different areas

[00:47:49] uh i think that's a really good breakdown because even when i was getting into cloud

[00:47:56] i i kind of fought through some of those areas and i was like okay it's cloud cyber there's the state

[00:48:04] earth it's whatever whatever whatever i was like i need to actually understand each of these to know

[00:48:09] yeah which one i'm trying to get into and so i really relate to that point

[00:48:14] um and i also just know that there's so many people who are really confused yeah really okay

[00:48:21] i want to get into tech yeah like tech is all this yeah so so it is important to to do some research

[00:48:30] into these little things to understand okay what actually draws your interest and knowing that

[00:48:35] like you said your trajectory could change yeah um yeah i can say like go ahead yeah i was gonna say i

[00:48:43] think um it's really important because if you have a guided direction um what happens is i said the

[00:48:52] five disciplines there's a lot of intersections in between those disciplines anyway but i think starting

[00:48:57] from somewhere with a structured learning path with an understanding of what skill set you're going to

[00:49:02] develop will still open you up to other areas as well you're not pigeon-held into one area it's just

[00:49:08] having that okay i want to get into cloud i want to get to cloud engineering this is what i need this is the

[00:49:13] skill set during that journey it can still open doors for other areas within tech as well it's a bit like

[00:49:19] medicine like i want to get into medicine medicine you can specialize in gynecology

[00:49:26] pediatrician like etc so people need to when it comes to tech they need to have like the

[00:49:31] medicine approach i want to get into medicine but i want to specialize in xyz which is where i think

[00:49:36] people lack and kind of get confused and don't really progress or go anywhere

[00:49:42] that makes so much sense um you're actually not pigeonholed into one thing and that's

[00:49:48] that's a fear of some people um and it basically the different roles in tech

[00:49:57] offer transferable skills to other roles which is a really good point i already got so much value from

[00:50:04] you already denzel and specifically going into to the what your advice is on getting into tech you've

[00:50:11] already given so many so many points throughout this conversation yeah but i wanted to just ask you up

[00:50:17] front for those aspiring to get into the tech industry um what is your advice your general advice on

[00:50:25] how they go from zero to the tech professional how how what would your advice be for that um

[00:50:32] zero oh that's a very good question caleb wow um i think just get started man just get started just

[00:50:42] do you know what like yeah just just get started do you know i mean um be in a position where like

[00:50:48] read up into it try and error because i think if you don't try if you're not if you're not putting

[00:50:53] yourself forward and you're not trying you know you're not you're not moving you're not elevating

[00:50:57] and uh get out of your comfort zone do you know i mean i took the leap of faith left a very good

[00:51:02] well-paid job you know it was probably the easiest job i've ever done to be fair and for

[00:51:06] i was getting paid yeah life was cushy then or get out of your comfort zone meet people talk to people

[00:51:12] don't be afraid to network i mean i've always said right your network is your net worth and my meaning

[00:51:18] my meaning behind that is if you're stuck around by let's say your boys or your girls or your your

[00:51:26] mandem from back in the day like yeah yeah we've been boys since we're young this this what it is like

[00:51:30] sometimes elevation elevation requires separations on many levels so you gotta put yourself in a position if

[00:51:36] you have to live life like a monk avoid alcohol avoid partying avoid girls avoid boys etc whatever

[00:51:42] and just live life like a monk and be in a position where you can like you know what um just get

[00:51:50] started yeah that's that's the best i can put it find out you know um if there's any sort of events

[00:51:54] around the area that you're from just get a mentor because at the end of the day if somebody came up

[00:51:58] to me said oh then i want to jump into tech i don't know where to start i'll be i'm more than happy

[00:52:02] give you free games so listen what is it that you want to do oh i want to learn about networking and

[00:52:07] then give him a few laps to try out and said you know go and then do you know go off your go here's

[00:52:12] what you need to do if it's for you and you think like you've got a mindset for it then by all means

[00:52:16] i'll be more than happy to you know to be your mentor then you know train you up and you know in

[00:52:21] the best way that i can but like i said my my honest opinion from that is just get started

[00:52:26] just get started and have the right and have the right support networking with people around you

[00:52:30] because at the end of the day it's not what you know it's whom you know and who's around you